Please tell me, if you have spent any time riding in a police car ()(n the front seat) how on earth an officer is able to easily determine the race of the registrant or operator of a car from often several car lengths behind?
1) At night it's virtually impossible
2) "Registered owner" dta in DMV doesn't indicate race
3) Listen to dispatch tapes, even when dispatch says the car is "owned by "Brown, Katherine, DOB 101051, address in Salem," they do not report race
If you start at a place of fundamental hatred and profound distrust of cops there is a baked in bias that will affect all your"research."
The alternative, the sad results of which we have seen in Portland, are massive "de-policing" where officers are too scared or disinterested to effect "traffic stops" (versus the major felony stops you imply are the only real justification).
The overwhelming victims of violent street crime are people of color and poor people, but we gotta keep those cops from doing ANYTHING!
It's crazy you would even put such stupid opinions down with your own name Mr. Joshua Marquis.
As clearly outlined in the City Audit in 2018 and in the Police Bureau's most recent stop data: the Focused Intervention Team are making the decision to pull over vehicles before the vehicle does something illegal, sometimes before the occupants of the vehicle ENTER the vehicle. They don't know who is inside the vehicle and they're simply guessing, or making a probable determination based upon who they think entered a vehicle. I cited an example of this.
But more to the point, if you comprehended basic facts that I've outlined in this article, you would understand that FIT do surveillance of these vehicles for a notably longer period of time than routine Traffic Division officers, there's zero reason for FIT to make a snap judgement to pull over someone for a traffic violation, this is the exact opposite of what they do! In other words, they find a vehicle being operated by someone who they think is a gang member then find a reason to pull it over ----- ostensibly, if they can't make a guess about who the operator is, they don't pull the vehicle over, cause they ain't traffic cops.
Let's reinforce this again: their GODDAMN JOB IS TO PULL PEOPLE OVER BASED UPON WHO THEY SUSPECT IS IN THE VEHICLE.
Are you saying it's impossible or difficult to do this job? The job that Portland Police themselves proposed, created, and have operated?
OR, you're alternatively saying that this job and the strategy is rather difficult or stupid. Cause I agree with that, I just wrote an article on that which you didn't read.
If you earnestly think it's difficult to identify who is in the vehicle, which data from the audits and traffic stops suggest Portland Police **actually do have a difficult time**, then we're on the same page. This is the reality of the situation. This just reinforces that this entire strategy of pulling over random vehicles based upon vague notions of who might be inside (which is often wrong) is a bad idea, waste of time, and not a good use of law enforcement resources.
Because if it's impossible or difficult to do racial discrimination of vehicle drivers, and this task force is meant to target gangs and gun violence that is overwhelmingly black, then the conclusion you must draw is that this task force to reduce gun violence and target gangs is using the wrong tactic.
That's a fair conclusion of the evidence put in front of you, you fucking nitwit.
Why are you under the impression this task force is operating at night, primarily or exclusively? Cause that's just not the case: researching this article I found data suggesting this task force primarily works in the early and late afternoon, IIRC 12pm to 10pm.
Lastly, I don't have any problems at all with policing as an institution. Not only do I have beers with current and former cops regularly, but both of my parents did law enforcement in Portland. Personally I was planning on entering law enforcement myself, continuing the tradition of my family, until I learned how noxious the drug war was. I'm not coming from a perspective of profound hatred or distrust - but instead a perspective that our police need tactics and strategies that actually reduce crime and improve safety. To really hammer this so there's no ambiguity: currently I am endorsing Eli Arnold, a former police officer, for City Council.
You dumb fuck ninny, I didn't create this program, I'm explaining to you this program. It's completely irrelevant how much time I've spent in a police car.
It's the police, the people in the patrol vehicles, who developed this strategy in the 1990s. I'm not Chief Charles Moose, ok?
If you think it's difficult to determine who is the driver of the vehicle, take up your concerns with the people who developed (and continue to champion) the strategy of pulling over vehicles based upon who they suspect the driver is. Waddle your ass over to a meeting of FITCOG, and be sure to explain to the Lieutenant that you have more experience in patrol cars than they do, and really hammer how difficult it is to do this work accurately.
I'm only explaining to you that THEY use this strategy.
Now I understand why someone published an anonymous post. They are making things up and their response is to childishly attack those with different views.
I like how you came back to this post 3 months later. You're crazy dude. 1) I'm providing you data from PPB, I'm discussing their plan, their tactics, their outcomes - I'm not making up those numbers. 2) I only insult people that provide dumb commentary.
The best way to get idiots to shut the fuck up and stop spreading their noxious ideas is to condemn them harshly and unequivocally. I think Democracy and the free exchange within the marketplace of ideas requires that bad ideas be viciously mocked. No reason to be polite to people propagating bad ideas, as it just poisons the market place.
Like this idiot is thinking it's impossible for cops to look into vehicles, basically suggest that somehow I am making this up and pretending cops are doing it. Yet, I'm citing the police's actual strategy, a strategy they invented, championed, documented, etc. I'm not making up that cops say they can look into people's car windows at night, the cops are claiming they have the ability to do that - not me!
If this guy didn't wanted to be insulted he probably shouldn't have started with accusing me of "fundamental hatred and profound distrust of cops." Essentially claiming that my research, effort, and article are tainted by bias and therefore ought to be ignored. Do you understand how that's crassly insulting?
I would be so much more interested in engaging in reasonable conversation about the merits of this policing strategy if Jousha Marquis actually read my article and tried to comprehend it.
Buddy, I was just dumbing it down for you. True story: when I wrote my comment for the other guy, I actually wrote "Congratulations, this is the dumbest comment I've seen on the internet this week, which is particularly remarkable because I spend a lot of time on Reddit." I backtracked and deleted that snarky sentence after I read your comment, because it was no longer accurate, and I do really try to maintain the integrity of information I put on Substack. I didn't want to be crass and insulting to you, because judging by your fishing analogy, you wouldn't be able to comprehend it.
Anyways, if you're wondering why I'm citing data from 2016, it's because I'm comparing the current anti-gang program to the one we had in 2016. To do that, you have to...you know...cite the data from 2016. (The actual audit was published in 2018, citing 2016 data.)
If you're convinced that DOJ and PPB data is particularly accurate, it's not. I alluded to this above when I wrote "The 73-page report is not worth reading, maybe just skimming - because frankly there’s a long history of PPB manipulating statistics, so there’s a decent chance that the stats aren’t accurate."
As a relevant example to this entire conversation, when the GET/GVRT cops were confronted with the 2018 audit results, the cops said they'd do a better job of keeping track of race data. And, in subsequent reports, funny enough, the percentage of interactions GET/GVRT had with black folks had gone down! Amazing!
Though, by strange coincidence, the quantity of "unknown race" rose in the same proportion as the decrease of interactions with black people. Let me spell this out for you: the patrol officers were simply lying on their data collection forms because they know it's a no-no to check the African American box too often. Or, their ability to accurately guess the race of the person they were talking to diminished suddenly. This information is self-reported at the officer level - and if you really dig into the history of police data collection you'll find a plethora of examples where police won't voluntarily admit to behavior they know is politically unpalatable, and this is especially true for individual officers filling out forms. This is just one example of why the PPB's new STOP system (recommended by DOJ) isn't perfect - though, flawed data is better than no data.
But if you'd read my article you might understand that I agree there is data suggesting they changed tactics pretty substantially in 2023. It's entirely possible that right now, tonight, they're trying to switch up their anti-gang strategies to something more effective.
My blood pressure goes through the roof every time I read this type of unfortunate, misleading, fictional account of what our Police Officers are thought to do when making traffic stops! What once happened back in Portland’s dark days no longer occurs as we have the most highly trained officers in the Nation thanks to the Department of Justice’ close supervision of their actions and the continued screaming of a few minority voices who have much larger problems in their lives than worrying about a now highly unlikely traffic stop for a faulty taillight.
I spend around 30 hours per week at night driving the streets of every neighborhood in Portland as a Lyft driver. I frequently see the same low slung cars with all their windows blacked out and often without license plates driving around and obviously up to no good. The Police who patrol the different sections of the City also see these cars all the time and they know who the real “bad guys” are. We should applaud these officers for stopping them for even the smallest infraction, and for doing whatever they legally can to search the vehicle.
Even the dumbest anti cop knuckle draggers have to admit that if you can’t see the driver because of illegally tinted windows you can’t harass them because they are black! Who the fork knows what color they are since they are purposely hiding their identities,
For those of you who like stories I have one that explains the absurdity of over policing in minority neighborhoods.
Let’s say that you and I have the opportunity to win a $Million prize for catching the most fish in a 12 hour period. We both have exactly the same kind of equipment, bait, experience, etc., you know, we both have complete equity for the contest regardless of what our backgrounds have been.
The contest begins and while I am heading to the ocean to try my luck, you feel that this is very unfair to the fish and drive to the desert to try your luck. You have a tremendous day in the desert, find a small stream and catch a dozen fish, a truly remarkable feat!
Your outstanding efforts are rewarded with 12 fish, and I am rewarded with a check for One Million Dollars!! You see, and any fool could tell you, that there are far more fish in the sea than in any desert, and my haul of 1,200 pounds of fish is proof of just that!!
The same goes for catching criminals, you can spend your time on duty in the lily white suburbs, and you may catch a criminal or two. But if my job is to catch criminals and to protect the people they are most likely to prey on, then I am heading straight to the ghetto where the sea is filled with predators, and the poor people who live there are the most likely to be victimized!
Who is the better fisherman? Clearly the guy with the Million Dollar check!
Who is the better policeman? Also clearly, the guy who is risking his life in the worst parts of town to protect the people who need it most, you know, the racist cop who only arrests black men!
Let's continue your analogy about fishing, imagine we are in a competition to catch as many Trout as possible and we're basically at Rainbow Trout Farms.
But in the 2016 Rainbow Trout Fishing Competition it turns out that you do catch and release for 8 out of 10 fish caught. In 2023 it's now 9 out of 10 fish you reel in but then decide it's the wrong trout. If you think you're catching the wrong trout you need to change your tactics. Meanwhile, I'm suggesting that the real thing you ought to do is just throw a fishing net in the water and dredge them in, in bulk fashion, cause we did that for like 100 years to go after fish. We're all looking at you spending a ton of time not catching the right fish with your current tactics.
But here's the crazy part of the Rainbow Trout Fishing Competition: the judges are hardcore vegans and hate the notion that you caught a fish at all. They take all the fish you caught and proudly throw them back in the water thinking they're righteously helping the fish community. The voters and legislators have already demanded that you can't even use a bucket to hold the fish in as they wait to be seen by the judges - and after you've caught any fish you need to let it go back into the water, and you gotta catch the same fish again when the judges are ready.
Please tell me, if you have spent any time riding in a police car ()(n the front seat) how on earth an officer is able to easily determine the race of the registrant or operator of a car from often several car lengths behind?
1) At night it's virtually impossible
2) "Registered owner" dta in DMV doesn't indicate race
3) Listen to dispatch tapes, even when dispatch says the car is "owned by "Brown, Katherine, DOB 101051, address in Salem," they do not report race
If you start at a place of fundamental hatred and profound distrust of cops there is a baked in bias that will affect all your"research."
The alternative, the sad results of which we have seen in Portland, are massive "de-policing" where officers are too scared or disinterested to effect "traffic stops" (versus the major felony stops you imply are the only real justification).
The overwhelming victims of violent street crime are people of color and poor people, but we gotta keep those cops from doing ANYTHING!
It's crazy you would even put such stupid opinions down with your own name Mr. Joshua Marquis.
As clearly outlined in the City Audit in 2018 and in the Police Bureau's most recent stop data: the Focused Intervention Team are making the decision to pull over vehicles before the vehicle does something illegal, sometimes before the occupants of the vehicle ENTER the vehicle. They don't know who is inside the vehicle and they're simply guessing, or making a probable determination based upon who they think entered a vehicle. I cited an example of this.
But more to the point, if you comprehended basic facts that I've outlined in this article, you would understand that FIT do surveillance of these vehicles for a notably longer period of time than routine Traffic Division officers, there's zero reason for FIT to make a snap judgement to pull over someone for a traffic violation, this is the exact opposite of what they do! In other words, they find a vehicle being operated by someone who they think is a gang member then find a reason to pull it over ----- ostensibly, if they can't make a guess about who the operator is, they don't pull the vehicle over, cause they ain't traffic cops.
Let's reinforce this again: their GODDAMN JOB IS TO PULL PEOPLE OVER BASED UPON WHO THEY SUSPECT IS IN THE VEHICLE.
Are you saying it's impossible or difficult to do this job? The job that Portland Police themselves proposed, created, and have operated?
OR, you're alternatively saying that this job and the strategy is rather difficult or stupid. Cause I agree with that, I just wrote an article on that which you didn't read.
If you earnestly think it's difficult to identify who is in the vehicle, which data from the audits and traffic stops suggest Portland Police **actually do have a difficult time**, then we're on the same page. This is the reality of the situation. This just reinforces that this entire strategy of pulling over random vehicles based upon vague notions of who might be inside (which is often wrong) is a bad idea, waste of time, and not a good use of law enforcement resources.
Because if it's impossible or difficult to do racial discrimination of vehicle drivers, and this task force is meant to target gangs and gun violence that is overwhelmingly black, then the conclusion you must draw is that this task force to reduce gun violence and target gangs is using the wrong tactic.
That's a fair conclusion of the evidence put in front of you, you fucking nitwit.
Why are you under the impression this task force is operating at night, primarily or exclusively? Cause that's just not the case: researching this article I found data suggesting this task force primarily works in the early and late afternoon, IIRC 12pm to 10pm.
Lastly, I don't have any problems at all with policing as an institution. Not only do I have beers with current and former cops regularly, but both of my parents did law enforcement in Portland. Personally I was planning on entering law enforcement myself, continuing the tradition of my family, until I learned how noxious the drug war was. I'm not coming from a perspective of profound hatred or distrust - but instead a perspective that our police need tactics and strategies that actually reduce crime and improve safety. To really hammer this so there's no ambiguity: currently I am endorsing Eli Arnold, a former police officer, for City Council.
Have you ever spent a couple shifts riding in a police car? ("FidedlityPDX? - those of us with the courage of our convictions sign our own names).
You dumb fuck ninny, I didn't create this program, I'm explaining to you this program. It's completely irrelevant how much time I've spent in a police car.
It's the police, the people in the patrol vehicles, who developed this strategy in the 1990s. I'm not Chief Charles Moose, ok?
If you think it's difficult to determine who is the driver of the vehicle, take up your concerns with the people who developed (and continue to champion) the strategy of pulling over vehicles based upon who they suspect the driver is. Waddle your ass over to a meeting of FITCOG, and be sure to explain to the Lieutenant that you have more experience in patrol cars than they do, and really hammer how difficult it is to do this work accurately.
I'm only explaining to you that THEY use this strategy.
My God, pull yourself together you moron.
Now I understand why someone published an anonymous post. They are making things up and their response is to childishly attack those with different views.
I like how you came back to this post 3 months later. You're crazy dude. 1) I'm providing you data from PPB, I'm discussing their plan, their tactics, their outcomes - I'm not making up those numbers. 2) I only insult people that provide dumb commentary.
Your extreme rudeness is uncalled-for.
The best way to get idiots to shut the fuck up and stop spreading their noxious ideas is to condemn them harshly and unequivocally. I think Democracy and the free exchange within the marketplace of ideas requires that bad ideas be viciously mocked. No reason to be polite to people propagating bad ideas, as it just poisons the market place.
Like this idiot is thinking it's impossible for cops to look into vehicles, basically suggest that somehow I am making this up and pretending cops are doing it. Yet, I'm citing the police's actual strategy, a strategy they invented, championed, documented, etc. I'm not making up that cops say they can look into people's car windows at night, the cops are claiming they have the ability to do that - not me!
If this guy didn't wanted to be insulted he probably shouldn't have started with accusing me of "fundamental hatred and profound distrust of cops." Essentially claiming that my research, effort, and article are tainted by bias and therefore ought to be ignored. Do you understand how that's crassly insulting?
I would be so much more interested in engaging in reasonable conversation about the merits of this policing strategy if Jousha Marquis actually read my article and tried to comprehend it.
I’m amazed at this response. You seemed so intelligent with your first comment on my comment.
Buddy, I was just dumbing it down for you. True story: when I wrote my comment for the other guy, I actually wrote "Congratulations, this is the dumbest comment I've seen on the internet this week, which is particularly remarkable because I spend a lot of time on Reddit." I backtracked and deleted that snarky sentence after I read your comment, because it was no longer accurate, and I do really try to maintain the integrity of information I put on Substack. I didn't want to be crass and insulting to you, because judging by your fishing analogy, you wouldn't be able to comprehend it.
Anyways, if you're wondering why I'm citing data from 2016, it's because I'm comparing the current anti-gang program to the one we had in 2016. To do that, you have to...you know...cite the data from 2016. (The actual audit was published in 2018, citing 2016 data.)
If you're convinced that DOJ and PPB data is particularly accurate, it's not. I alluded to this above when I wrote "The 73-page report is not worth reading, maybe just skimming - because frankly there’s a long history of PPB manipulating statistics, so there’s a decent chance that the stats aren’t accurate."
As a relevant example to this entire conversation, when the GET/GVRT cops were confronted with the 2018 audit results, the cops said they'd do a better job of keeping track of race data. And, in subsequent reports, funny enough, the percentage of interactions GET/GVRT had with black folks had gone down! Amazing!
Though, by strange coincidence, the quantity of "unknown race" rose in the same proportion as the decrease of interactions with black people. Let me spell this out for you: the patrol officers were simply lying on their data collection forms because they know it's a no-no to check the African American box too often. Or, their ability to accurately guess the race of the person they were talking to diminished suddenly. This information is self-reported at the officer level - and if you really dig into the history of police data collection you'll find a plethora of examples where police won't voluntarily admit to behavior they know is politically unpalatable, and this is especially true for individual officers filling out forms. This is just one example of why the PPB's new STOP system (recommended by DOJ) isn't perfect - though, flawed data is better than no data.
But if you'd read my article you might understand that I agree there is data suggesting they changed tactics pretty substantially in 2023. It's entirely possible that right now, tonight, they're trying to switch up their anti-gang strategies to something more effective.
Also, why are you representing 8 year old data as relevant to the current situation?
Current reporting by the DOJ shows almost complete compliance by the PPB with their directive.
Great response! You are one of the few people who really understand this issue! 😊👍🏻
My blood pressure goes through the roof every time I read this type of unfortunate, misleading, fictional account of what our Police Officers are thought to do when making traffic stops! What once happened back in Portland’s dark days no longer occurs as we have the most highly trained officers in the Nation thanks to the Department of Justice’ close supervision of their actions and the continued screaming of a few minority voices who have much larger problems in their lives than worrying about a now highly unlikely traffic stop for a faulty taillight.
I spend around 30 hours per week at night driving the streets of every neighborhood in Portland as a Lyft driver. I frequently see the same low slung cars with all their windows blacked out and often without license plates driving around and obviously up to no good. The Police who patrol the different sections of the City also see these cars all the time and they know who the real “bad guys” are. We should applaud these officers for stopping them for even the smallest infraction, and for doing whatever they legally can to search the vehicle.
Even the dumbest anti cop knuckle draggers have to admit that if you can’t see the driver because of illegally tinted windows you can’t harass them because they are black! Who the fork knows what color they are since they are purposely hiding their identities,
For those of you who like stories I have one that explains the absurdity of over policing in minority neighborhoods.
Let’s say that you and I have the opportunity to win a $Million prize for catching the most fish in a 12 hour period. We both have exactly the same kind of equipment, bait, experience, etc., you know, we both have complete equity for the contest regardless of what our backgrounds have been.
The contest begins and while I am heading to the ocean to try my luck, you feel that this is very unfair to the fish and drive to the desert to try your luck. You have a tremendous day in the desert, find a small stream and catch a dozen fish, a truly remarkable feat!
Your outstanding efforts are rewarded with 12 fish, and I am rewarded with a check for One Million Dollars!! You see, and any fool could tell you, that there are far more fish in the sea than in any desert, and my haul of 1,200 pounds of fish is proof of just that!!
The same goes for catching criminals, you can spend your time on duty in the lily white suburbs, and you may catch a criminal or two. But if my job is to catch criminals and to protect the people they are most likely to prey on, then I am heading straight to the ghetto where the sea is filled with predators, and the poor people who live there are the most likely to be victimized!
Who is the better fisherman? Clearly the guy with the Million Dollar check!
Who is the better policeman? Also clearly, the guy who is risking his life in the worst parts of town to protect the people who need it most, you know, the racist cop who only arrests black men!
The End
I really have no idea what you're going on about.
Let's continue your analogy about fishing, imagine we are in a competition to catch as many Trout as possible and we're basically at Rainbow Trout Farms.
But in the 2016 Rainbow Trout Fishing Competition it turns out that you do catch and release for 8 out of 10 fish caught. In 2023 it's now 9 out of 10 fish you reel in but then decide it's the wrong trout. If you think you're catching the wrong trout you need to change your tactics. Meanwhile, I'm suggesting that the real thing you ought to do is just throw a fishing net in the water and dredge them in, in bulk fashion, cause we did that for like 100 years to go after fish. We're all looking at you spending a ton of time not catching the right fish with your current tactics.
But here's the crazy part of the Rainbow Trout Fishing Competition: the judges are hardcore vegans and hate the notion that you caught a fish at all. They take all the fish you caught and proudly throw them back in the water thinking they're righteously helping the fish community. The voters and legislators have already demanded that you can't even use a bucket to hold the fish in as they wait to be seen by the judges - and after you've caught any fish you need to let it go back into the water, and you gotta catch the same fish again when the judges are ready.
And you're celebrating this fishing contest?
This is a great use of tax dollars?
Nice try, but my firsthand experience trumps your ridiculous obfuscation 😎👍🏻
Terrific piece of research and invective. But...how come you're so shy about running this under your own name?